STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Now, in that 2020 book called "Make America Healthy Again," Dr. Nicole Saphier argued, quote, "we don't need socialized medicine. We need to take better care of ourselves." That's her quote. What does an experienced public health professional make of that? Dr. Georges Benjamin is the longtime CEO of the American Public Health Association and joins us now. Dr. Benjamin, good morning.
GEORGES BENJAMIN: Good morning, Steve. How are you?
INSKEEP: I'm doing OK. Thanks so much. So let's start with that quote. Don't need socialized medicine. We need to take better care of ourselves. What does that quote say to you?
BENJAMIN: Yeah. She wants government out of her business, but the problem is, is that government needs to be in our business at some point. And she's right. We ought to take better care of ourselves, but you have to have a system that's designed to help you get there.
INSKEEP: Well, let's talk that through. I mean, if we're thinking in terms of just, you know, moderation in all things, you know, a decent diet, decent exercise, that actually makes a kind of intuitive sense, and maybe the government doesn't need to be part of that.
BENJAMIN: Yeah. But you have to have sidewalks. You have to have place to walk. You have to - communities that are safe. You have to be able to get vaccinated. You have to do prevention well, and the government has to set the rules around that, and at least so far this administration, we've seen that they're breaking those rules. So it'll be interesting to see how she does.
INSKEEP: Based on what you know of Dr. Saphier's record, does she have a fairly conventional idea of what it means to take care of yourself? I mean, diet and exercise, as opposed to beef tallow or whatever.
BENJAMIN: Yeah. Everything we know about it so far seems that, you know, she's well trained. She's practice - obviously practicing good clinical medicine in a great place, you know, highly credentialed place. So, you know, it remains to be seen, but I remind you, her second job is to be the head of the Commissioned Corps of the Public Health Service. So she also has to go in and lead the corps, in addition to being simply a TV spokesperson.
INSKEEP: Oh, that's very interesting because I do think of the surgeon general mainly as being a spokesperson, someone who tries to give you good advice. But what is this Public Health Service, and what is the job of managing that?
BENJAMIN: The Commissioned Corps, the 6,000 members of the uniformed Corps of the Public Health Service, and they're the people that respond to all kinds of public health emergencies all around the world. They're in uniform. You remember C. Everett Koop in his beautiful, you know, uniform led the corps. And so she's also going to be at vice admiral rank within the corps. And so she's going to have to lead those fine men and women. And that's going to be interesting.
INSKEEP: Wait a minute. So you're a general and an admiral at the same time?
BENJAMIN: Well, you're an admiral. Yeah. They carry a kind of a Navy rank system.
INSKEEP: Do you see signs that Dr. Saphier will be independent? I want to note that she's been willing to disagree with the president from time to time, for example, saying that his comments that pregnant women should not take Tylenol were, quote, "patronizing" and "full of hyperbole" and "painful to watch." These are things she's been willing to say out loud.
BENJAMIN: We hope so. We hope so. But everyone who's had that job, of course - the surgeon general doesn't get to say everything they want to say. Within government, they've got a boss, and they're going to have to, to some degree, come on board with the program. So hopefully - but she'll be evidence-based and science-based. But that remains to be seen, but we're all hoping that that will be the case.
INSKEEP: Pien Huang said that her views on vaccines were a little murky. Let's explore what we do. No, she has said vaccines save lives, so not a total anti-vaxxer - at the same time has said it may not be necessary for every child to get a hepatitis B vaccine at birth or to require COVID booster shots. Are those - within the realm of science, I mean, is there room to debate? Are those reasonable positions to take?
BENJAMIN: You know, we ought to have good scientific debate, but I believe that the science around those two particular situations are clear. And I would personally disagree with their interpretation of the science there.
INSKEEP: What do you mean? What does the science tell you?
BENJAMIN: I think you need a COVID shot. I think they're certainly for high-risk people, and the hepatitis B vaccine should be given at birth to every child.
INSKEEP: And there's not in the medical literature a little room for doubt there?
BENJAMIN: There's always room for debate, but we've had that experiment, and we know that only the science is pretty clear on that, but our experience about what happens to kids when we don't give it to them at birth, the risk profile is just way too high. So I hope that she'll relook at those studies and come out with a different opinion.
INSKEEP: When you look at what the Trump administration has done to the public health system - the leadership of RFK Jr., the Senate largely stepping aside until this moment where senators objected to a nominee, and we now have a new nominee - is there an opportunity to change course slightly?
BENJAMIN: I think so. I hope the administration will change course, and this is - I don't know if this is a sign that they're going to, but it is nice to see to the fact that the last two nominees that they've nominated, both for the CDC and for the surgeon general, have well-credentialed and experienced backgrounds.
INSKEEP: If you were giving a sentence of advice to Dr. Saphier, what would it be?
BENJAMIN: Follow the science. Follow the evidence.
INSKEEP: That's a short one and a straightforward one. Dr. Benjamin, thanks so much.
BENJAMIN: Thank you, Steve.
INSKEEP: Dr. Georges Benjamin is CEO of the American Public Health Association. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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